PhatHack
Other => General Car Audio => Topic started by: LloydDobler on May 18, 2006, 08:43:55 pm
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Here's my hands on report. I bought a Kenwood KDC-X890 because I love my Keg. This is the obvious and logical next step, a head unit that recognizes USB hard drives, bypassing the extra cost and hardware and proprietary crap of the Keg/Phatbox.
Kenwood COMPLETELY FAILED at transferring the functionality to this unit.
All you guys tell me if SSA/VIOT works like this on your units? Not only does the browser take forever, but it forces you to use only one of the categories. You can't scroll to Foo Fighters and then choose among their albums, You have to pick one album by name, wait for the alphabetical search to scroll by, then stop on the letter and manually flip through all albums of that letter to get to it. Then if you want to listen to the next album by the same artist, you can't just hit next, you have to do a complete new album search. It's completely non intuitive. If you're in album mode and hit next album it takes you to the next album alphabetically, instead of the next album by the artist you're on. If you switch to artist mode it takes you to the next artist, bypassing all albums by the artist you were just listening to. Using any of these modes takes you to playlist #1, all music, so you can't just switch to playlist mode and find the next album. Oh and to top it all off, they disable alphabetical browsing in playlist mode, and removed direct playlist access, so actually using playlists is impossible if you have more than say, 20. You can only use 'next disc' to choose a playlist! It forces you to do a search for every album you want to hear. The only other option is to use random mode while in playlist mode and keep hitting random till you get alphabetically close to the album you want.
The Keg had direct playlist access as a fallback in case you happened to memorize which playlist number was assigned to a particular disc. I could get to my most played discs in less than one second on the keg, and any disc within 5 seconds. With this head unit I have to cycle through search categories, then wait for it to slowly plod through the alphabet and then hit next disc over and over till I find the right album.
Here's a great example. I have a Depeche Mode playlist of some of my favorite old songs by them off of about 5 different albums. I combined them all into one playlist because I hate the rest of each album. I also have about 6 other DM albums. The only way I can get to this playlist is if I manually toggle through about ONE HUNDRED[/B] playlists. My only other choice is to do random play and hope I wind up in the D section at some point. It's the most unfriendly navigation I've ever seen.
Is that how SSA/VOIT has worked all along? Because I never used it, I just used direct disc access and organized all my playlists alphabetically by artist. If so, I can't imagine how any of you guys raved about it being awesome. It doesn't even let you hit 'next' to get through the letters faster. I mean seriously, there's nothing more irritating than WAITING for a god damn stereo to cycle through the alphabet when you know you want it to go to the letter O. Just let me turn the volume knob till it says 'O' or something. Then give me a second letter to browse by, instead of making me MANUALLY CYCLE THROUGH all the albums that start with O!
I hate it. Sound Q is good, browsing sucks. Seriously, it's like Google saying you can't just type in a webpage, you have to do a complete search and view all results alphabetically.
I'm seriously considering sending it back, getting a cheaper Kenwood head unit, and buying another Keg off eBay. I mean seriously, do any of these people even have large music collections?
Do any of you guys have suggestions on making this thing easier to browse?
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SSA / VIOT is not that slow.. I would imagine that the processing power / speed of the built in ACDrive functionality is likely less than that of the phatbox with its optimized database (haha) and hard disk access speeds.. Until I use it though I can't say for sure what the issue is.
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I read through the regular SSA manual and it definitely does not function the same as this.
When I say it's slow, what I mean is that it sits there and says "A" (pause) "B" (pause) "C" and there's no way to just fast forward up to O or P or whatever you want. Processor-wise it seems really fast, and actually they eliminated the time delay that the phatnoise had in displaying the tag information. As in, the instant the song starts playing, the entire artist/album/title is displayed. You can actually browse songs in an album before they start playing now.
I've had my daughter with me so I couldn't really do any testing but I just played with it some more. They also disable the alphabet search in folder mode. What the hell? So I had one last hope of maybe organizing things by folder and fast browsing that way, but no. I literally can't get to one of my playlists in less than 40 clicks unless I happen to get near it using random play while in playlist mode (or I put it right at the beginning of the path instead of among the other playlists by that artist). If you're browsing in either playlist mode or folder mode, you are forced to click through hundreds of selections, with absolutely no way to jump ahead to any section of the library. I can't imagine any user thinking this is effective.
It's pathetic. They really crippled this thing. And I can't for the life of me comprehend why they would take pre-packaged software that works great, and modify it so that it doesn't.
I mean I had a couple minor complaints before I was able to get the USB drive working, like you can't set the 3 line display to set artist on one line, album on the next line, and title on the last line, it forces the artist tag to be coupled with either the album or the song title. And it puts the album first, not the artist. That's just stupid little junk that you get over after using it for a week. But not being able to go from one Artist's album to another of their albums with one button click is a real pisser that you'll be reminded of every time you're hitting 'next track' 30 times in a row.
I put in an email to Kenwood asking if they have plans to update the firmware. I'll keep you posted.
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Lloyd, is it possible you got a lemon? There are not a lot of reviews of the new head units online, but the ones I've found are positive and don't mention any of these problems. The ones that mention USB hard drives also don't seem to have any power issues, unlike your case.
Are you using a 2.5 drive? What capacity? How many tracks did you load? Did you load the tracks using Media Manager?
Have you tried an MP3 CD? Is it as slow on a CD?
Judb is likely right that the ACDrive has less processing power than the Phatbox, but it should still work to a useable degree.
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Yeah I bought a 'power miserly' 80 gig WD passport external, with a 2.5" 5400 RPM drive. Basically it has about 1A spinup current and then 500 mA operating current. If I unplug my secondary power supply after it spins up, it will run off the head unit. But that's a non issue because it specifically says 500 mA max, so I planned on buying an external power supply anyway. The power supply was $12 and I can hard wire it and hide it behind my dash. I loaded about 150 albums and about 1500 songs and set up all the albums as playlists using media manager.
I've also run a 128 MB usb flash drive and it worked as expected, but of course it could only hold 15 songs or so, so I had no playlists or even folders.
It's not slow processor wise, my complaints are that it takes forever because it pauses to give you ample time to pick the letter, but doesn't let you skip ahead. Everything appears to be working as it should, except for the logic of it all. Nothing is out of spec with the user manual, the manual specifically says you can only browse by artist, album, title, or genre, based on the id3 tags.
My real complaints are these:
1) Alphabetical scrolling is slow.
2) When you browse to an artist, and then switch to album mode to browse albums, it disregards what artist you just browsed for. Example, I want to listen to Foo Fighters' The Color and The Shape:
Artist mode, browse to Foo Fighters. It starts playing Foo Fighters - Foo Fighters
Switch to album mode, hit 'next album.'
Next album is Duran Duran - Greatest. (G comes after F, of course it's logical!)
Another great example. I tend to listen to all 3 Disturbed albums in a row, skipping any songs I don't like. Chronologically, the albums are called The Sickness, Believe, and Ten Thousand Fists.
If I search artist for Disturbed, it starts playing Believe (alphabetically first). I cannot hit next disc twice to get to The Sickness, I have to hit 'next track twenty six times. I can't switch to album mode, because the next album is 'Best of' some other artist. If I want to listen to The Sickness, then Believe, then Ten Thousand Fists, I have to do an individual album search between each album. That's just stupid, nobody would think that's efficient browsing.
3) When you browse in album mode, and finish an album, it doesn't play the next album from the same artist.
4) Any alphabetical search returns you to playlist #1 in the playlist heirarchy, so if you're already in playlist mode down the heirarchy, you lose that.
5) You can't search alphabetically by your own playlists, or your folders, and you can't access playlists or folders directly. The owners manual specifically shows that you can't. It says you can in CD changer mode, but not USB mode. You can type in the playlist number, but when you hit 'next disc' it just goes to the next playlist.
I'm certain they did it this way on purpose. It appears they just forgot about massive collections and designed it around CD's where you're only going to have a max of say 10-20 playlists, so they figured you didn't need playlist browsing. Maybe the Keg sales were so lackluster that they didn't realize people would want to use this as a replacement for that. But the entire search and browse functions are based only on the id3 tag and are only focused on the 'all music' playlist. They've stripped all playlist functionality out of it, so if you have more than just a few custom playlists you're going to be hitting the next playlist button a lot.
I just can't believe that they didn't emulate the keg with it. All they really need to add is either direct playlist access or alphabetical playlist searching and it would be really usable. Ideally they should make it work like SSA where it remembers the context of what you were searching for.
I've decided what I'm going to do though. I've bought a barebones Phatbox off Ebay and the parts to make a cable. I'm going to swap my Keg cartridge between cars and hope they eventually fix the USB firmware to match. There is a way to check your ACDrive firmware, which to me says you can update it. Here's hoping.
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its possible that they just licensed the patent from phatnoise for SSA but implemented a whole new system that functions completly unlike a phatbox in almost every major way.
The reason that displaying is slower on phatboxes is the data is transfered over a low speed serial connection using the changer cable bus as opposed to being read along with the track at run time like the newer units can.
I may take a drive with me to a local shop and test out the functionality. Did it come with PMM to create the data on the drives or what? or can I stick any drive in without prepping it on the PC first?
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Kenwood didn't just license the SSA/voice indexing from Phatnoise. The entire database system, ACDrive, is in fact a Phatnoise product otherwise known as mCD: http://www.phatnoise.com/products/mcd/index.php
So ACDrive should have the same functionality as a Phatbox, and according to the manual's description it does. Browse by artist-album-genre, same as the Phatbox. Voice indexing, same. But the finer details seem to have been missed. Obviously, in album mode you should be able to get to the next alphabetical album by the same artist by hitting next disc. If you can't go to the next disc, then they really did screw it up.
Still, the issues you describe would annoy anyone, and I haven't read any similar complaints. It's still possible you got stuck with a lemon, maybe a head unit that accidentally went out with beta firmware. You could return it as defective and try your luck again, even with a different model. Replace the $500 X890 with the $250 X590. It's not as pretty as the X890 but it's the same USB interface and half the price. So, if it still sucks at least it won't be as painful.
If you're determined to stick it out, you might be able to improve some issues with a smaller drive, though I know that isn't what you wanted. People using 40GB drives don't seem to have complaints, or need a power supply.
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Yes, PMM came with the head unit and I used it to format and organize the HDD and create all my playlists. It's version 3.90 which is newer than what's available for download last time I checked. The head unit just seems to ignore playlists.
I'm sure the issue with the HDD needing an external power supply is simply that mine's a 5400 RPM drive and the startup current is just too far over 500mA. I don't mind having an external power supply, it only cost $12 and I can hard wire it and hide it behind the dash.
I have version 1.2 of the ACDrive firmware, I suppose I could check around and see if anyone else has a newer version.
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when you use the new PMM to format the new drive as an ACD disk.. does it have a phtsys partition? I am wondering how they've changed the firmware since I highly doubt that for playback of audio its using executables that are stored outside of the head unit.
Surely they are not booting linux onto a processor inside the head unit strictly for this functionality.. they must have redesigned some parts of the system away from the phatbox models we are used to.. who knows what performance tradeoffs were made for that purpose.
can you send us a file list of the drive you have? you can exclude any music files you have if you choose to.
simple way:
q:
dir /s > c:\acddrive.txt
post the acddrive.txt for us.
thanks!
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There are two folders on the drive, mcd and music. The music folder is a direct copy of the folders and all that from my music folder on my PC.
The mcd folder contains
folder albumart (empty, I have no album art)
folder tts (I assume this is all the voice index files, they're all .mw files)
pkeys2.e
pkeys2.sig
phatnoise_usb_portable.db
playlists.xml
mcd.db
mcd.ini
mcd.sig
playlists.xml contains all my playlists, formatted like this:
- <Playlists>
- <Playlist GUID="All Songs GUID">
- <Query type="OR">
<Filepath condition="CONTAINS">.</Filepath>
</Query>
</Playlist>
- <Playlist GUID="8F95D0EF-9B31-4eeb-ACB0-9CDED233696F">
- <Query type="OR">
<Album condition="IS">Bunkka</Album>
<Album condition="IS">Bunkka</Album>
</Query>
</Playlist>
- <Playlist GUID="8915881D-2136-4c27-813D-7454A61D8F4A">
- <Query type="OR">
<Album condition="IS">Our Time in Eden</Album>
</Query>
</Playlist>
- <Playlist GUID="53FFCCA1-11AB-47da-8D26-D20749B522A2">
- <Query type="OR">
<Album condition="IS">The Best of 38 Special - The Millenium Collection</Album>
</Query>
</Playlist>
mcd.ini contains this:
[mcd]
pmm_version=3.90
pmm_build=MCD
burn_date=2006-05-18 00:28:52
PMM_locale_setting=0
PC_codepage=1252
OEM_codepage=437
voice_engine=ScanSoft Jennifer_Full_22kHz
I don't have anything that can read the other files, apparently.
from the mcd site:
"PhatNoise mCD embedded software is directly integrated with the CD receiver’s on-board processors to add a new dimension to the in-car experience. Sort and find music by artist, album, genre, playlist or folder, as your selections are read aloud. Customize your drive with Voice Index: Listen to a random selection of songs, hear a song from an album you love, switch modes, and all the songs from that album are cued up for you with one touch of a button."
Yeah, that's not true. Today I found an album and wanted to listen to the newer album by that artist. So reflexively I switched to album mode and hit next album. Naturally it took me to some other album that happened to be alphabetically next. So my choices were to go back to the album i was listening to, and skip through all 16 tracks, or do a new album search for that album. Just when I thought I'd be ok with the thing it pissed me off again.
But this gives me hope (also from the mcd page)
"Plus the software can deliver updates to the CD receiver to add new formats and features in the future, an industry first. "
I'll be waiting with my keg, Phatties.
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Interesting. can you send us a copy of the pkeys files and a copy of the .db files and xml files?
I'd like to see what, if anything, they changed from the previous phatbox releases.
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PM me contact info and I'll send out the whole mcd folder if you want. I'll leave out the voice prompt files probably because I imagine they're pretty large. I'll do this later when I get home.
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I have the same HU and I think we may be SOL. I have a phatnoise in my bug and it is awesome, but the one in my ford with the kenwood head unit will not allow me to do anything other than scroll through my playlists and then move through those one track at a time.
edit: we don't talk about plugin hacking to get them free here.. sorry dude.
-jeff
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I have the VIOT pluging on my kegs and it works fine.. the scan button (or menu in the case of my XXV-01D that has the scan option) allows me to change between artist - album - genre - playlist modes just fine. I loves my keg!
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I have the VIOT pluging on my kegs and it works fine.. the scan button (or menu in the case of my XXV-01D that has the scan option) allows me to change between artist - album - genre - playlist modes just fine. I loves my keg!
Any idea if VOIT will work on VW OEM that has been transplanted?
-j
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I seem to remember there is a thread about it somewhere.. you have to play with the box_id files IIRC to make it install via PMM and then you can install it in the car.. I assume you mean its a VW converted with kenwood firmware right?
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I seem to remember there is a thread about it somewhere.. you have to play with the box_id files IIRC to make it install via PMM and then you can install it in the car.. I assume you mean its a VW converted with kenwood firmware right?
Well I just took the plunge and it worked. I followed the VOIT instructions from the wiki. http://wiki.phathack.com/VIOT. It is much better than before, but it is no where near as nice as the ssa in my vw.
On the vw, once you are on the Artist function, holding down the fast forward will take you through the alphabet audibly. On this thing you can do it one at a time audibly or holding down the fast forward it shoots through the artist 'numbers'. I also noticed that in the Albulm function, you can not skip a song, you can only fast forward or rewind. I hope they plan on working out the kinks, but I doubt it.
Thanks for everyones help.
-j
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if you have a remote you can type in an number for whatever artist/genere/playlst/album you want depending on mode you are in.. fyi.
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if you have a remote you can type in an number for whatever artist/genere/playlst/album you want depending on mode you are in.. fyi.
Yea, I guess I can get used to that, and it is much better than stock. It would have been nice if they would have just let you use the acdrive functionality on the changer as well though. :-( I have yet to connect a usb drive to it.... perhaps that will work better.
-j
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On the vw, once you are on the Artist function, holding down the fast forward will take you through the alphabet audibly. On this thing you can do it one at a time audibly or holding down the fast forward it shoots through the artist 'numbers'. I also noticed that in the Albulm function, you can not skip a song, you can only fast forward or rewind.
Well I spoke to soon, you can do all these things, but it isn't intuitive with my head unit. It is also a little tempermental.
Sorry
-j
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I got a reply from Kenwood support and the response was basically 'everything is fine, it should work just like the Keg, and you need to use PMM to set it up'.
I wrote back saying 'I know it should work that way, I'm writing because it DOES NOT.'
We'll see what I get back. It happened again today, I was randomly playing music and an artist came on that I wanted to hear the previous album, and I realized that the only way to get to that album was to do a complete new album search (waiting for it to scroll to M, then scrolling through 15 albums that start with M) or just hitting 'previous track' until I found the first track of the album I wanted. It took 26 presses to find the track I wanted. So stupid.
I got my new phatbox flashed, hacked and ready to install. It still burns me up though.
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if you have a remote you can type in an number for whatever artist/genere/playlst/album you want depending on mode you are in.. fyi.
Yea, I guess I can get used to that, and it is much better than stock. It would have been nice if they would have just let you use the acdrive functionality on the changer as well though. :-( I have yet to connect a usb drive to it.... perhaps that will work better.
-j
Nope. On the USB drives all playlist functionality is removed except for 'next' and 'previous'. You can't search alpha and you can't even type the number in. If they had left that alone it'd be good enough.
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Got another reply from Kenwood tech support and whoever it is (they don't sign a name) says he now understands what I'm saying and he's going to check out the firmware and see if they can add browsing by playlist. This is promising, that they haven't just blown me off. It almost makes me regret buying another phatbox. Almost.
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http://wiki.phathack.com/VIOT explains how to get VIOT or SSA for PhatBoxes on Kenwood headunits
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Update:
Last week when I blew up my phatbox I figured it'd be a good idea to hit Kenwood with another email complaining about this and see if they've fixed it. The guy replied and basically said there are no updates and no plans to update in the future.
Thanks a lot guys for rotten software. Way to support a $430 product. Maybe they don't care since they already got my money, but I can certainly make sure they don't get any more of it.
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that sucks -- my reply really looks stupid, did I not read the thread? lol
At least with the phatbox you can have like 160GB of music now ;)
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Hi All,
I have been hacking the kenwood ACDrive / mCD database and may have some solutions to a few of the shortcomings mentioned in this thread. Please see here for details:
http://wiki.phathack.com/ACDrive
Please start all new Kenwood ACDrive discussions in the new forum here:
http://forum.phathack.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=acdrive
Overall, I like the ACDrive, though I have never owned a PhatBox. AFAIK, the kenwood units are still the only decent USB capable headunit, many other brands still have awefull limits (like max 255 files!) and certainly don't have artist/album/genre/playlist browsing at all.
Thanks,
Dave