PhatHack
Phatbox / Keg software and support => Phatnoise Hardware Support => Topic started by: sparky3 on July 27, 2006, 12:55:21 am
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Can anyone verify, before I drop another $200 on a KHD-CX910, if in fact the 910 sounds better? Is the hardware interally the same? I mean has anyone with a 710 unplugged it, popped in their DMS into a 910 and been able to tell any difference? Why do the 910's with 10GB DMS's and USB 1 cradles outsell their 710 counterparts? Especially when the auctions read "VOIT is a free download" (obviously which it isn't now).
Anyone who can help, I really appreciate it!
Shawn
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I thought the 910's originally had a 20GB DMS, which made retail a bit more expensive. I've seen a thread on this before though, and I think someone mentioned other differences. You'll have to dig through teh older threads on here.
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I've dug through them a few times - just curious to hear from those who've had both.
Also, what the heck is this?
http://bestbuy.partsearch.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductSKU=3149354&ProductType=PART&ModelID=285702
Shawn
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Not really sure what that is. I was actually browsing through that parts-search a few days ago hoping to find a barebones Keg without any luck.
I own the 710, with an upgraded 80GB drive. I can't say for sure if the 910 has any better SQ than the 710, it would be interesting to see though.
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They have different DACs. Check the wiki. Even though it says the chip on the 910 is only 16-bit, the datasheet says 24.
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They have different DAC chips and the 910 has RCA outs on it.
The link above is to the heat sink (the metal case top with the kenwood logo on it) for the 910.
Funny they call it a heat sink though because its not touching any components on the board.
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So which model comes with the TI PCM1748E ?
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They have different DAC chips and the 910 has RCA outs on it.
The link above is to the heat sink (the metal case top with the kenwood logo on it) for the 910.
Funny they call it a heat sink though because its not touching any components on the board.
710 also has RCA outs.
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First, remember that the compression method and bit rate of the music being played has the most effect on the sound quality. FLAC encoded music will always sound the best, with the trade off of extra space consumption on the DMS cartridge.
I run a KHD-CX910 and I had a KHD-C710 for a short time. In my experience, the KHD-CX910 sounded better. I think this is due to its 24 bit DAC as mentioned earlier. The KHD-CX910 was from Kenwood's Excelon line, which is their high end equipment. KHD-CX910 is to the KHD-C710 as Lexus is to Toyota. And they do both have RCA jacks.
Neither of these units came with USB 2.0 cradles originally. The USB 2.0 cradle has to be purchased separately, or could obtained from a VW or Audi Phatbox kit. I got my USB 2.0 cradle from a VW Phatbox kit, which used to be available for about $125 shipped, but they are all gone now and only available from EBay auctions. The VW phatbox is roughly equivalent to the KHD-C710, so that one is for the wife's car ;).
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All this has been said before, and most is in the wiki. Also, I have both models and have not been able to hear any difference personally.
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All this has been said before, and most is in the wiki. Also, I have both models and have not been able to hear any difference personally.
I see pictures of the PCB boards for the 710/910, a broken link for the Cirrus Logic CS4341 hardware, and a pdf for the 24 bit Burr-Brown/TI PCM1748E (U7).
Can you please show me specifically where it states which is which for each Keg? I ain't a findin' it!
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Here.... http://wiki.phathack.com/Hardware_FAQ#PCB_Layout_.28Photos.29
This may also help some folks... http://wiki.phathack.com/Versions_and_Compatibility
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Here.... http://wiki.phathack.com/Hardware_FAQ#PCB_Layout_.28Photos.29
This may also help some folks... http://wiki.phathack.com/Versions_and_Compatibility
I still can't find it. Does anyone here think it's easy to make out specifically what sound chip is on either of these boards based on those two pictures? One of the links are broken on the wiki page, and the search engine HERE is limited to the last 15 results! How is a casual browser to this site supposed to find anything? Sorry, but I get frustrated when people say "Oh, it's on this site or another site" without a specific link or a reasonable way to search for it.
Why is the search function so limited?
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Here.... http://wiki.phathack.com/Hardware_FAQ#PCB_Layout_.28Photos.29
This may also help some folks... http://wiki.phathack.com/Versions_and_Compatibility
I still can't find it. Does anyone here think it's easy to make out specifically what sound chip is on either of these boards based on those two pictures? One of the links are broken on the wiki page, and the search engine HERE is limited to the last 15 results! How is a casual browser to this site supposed to find anything? Sorry, but I get frustrated when people say "Oh, it's on this site or another site" without a specific link or a reasonable way to search for it.
Why is the search function so limited?
"An Error Has Occurred!
The requested number of results is higher then the maximum number allowed by the system.
Maximun Search Results Allowed = 15"
>:(
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Quoted from http://wiki.phathack.com/Hardware_FAQ which was linked a few posts up
Cirrus Logic CS4341
16-bit
Datasheet (http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4341_F4.pdf)
or
Burr-Brown/TI PCM1748E (U7)
24-bit/96kHz
Datasheet (http://www-s.ti.com/sc/ds/pcm1748.pdf)
it lists the CS4341 as being 16-bit but the datasheet says it's 24-bit... if you have a 710 feel free to rip it apart and verify
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Oh yes, the link for CS4341 is broken... but strangely enough when I do a google search for CS4341 the top link tells you all about it and links the correct datasheet http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P36.html
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Quoted from http://wiki.phathack.com/Hardware_FAQ which was linked a few posts up
Cirrus Logic CS4341
16-bit
Datasheet (http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4341_F4.pdf)
or
Burr-Brown/TI PCM1748E (U7)
24-bit/96kHz
Datasheet (http://www-s.ti.com/sc/ds/pcm1748.pdf)
it lists the CS4341 as being 16-bit but the datasheet says it's 24-bit... if you have a 710 feel free to rip it apart and verify
2 things:
1. Can you click on that first link you just provided and tell me what you get?
2. Why is the search feature so limited?
Shawn
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Does anyone here think it's easy to make out specifically what sound chip is on either of these boards based on those two pictures?
Err, yes, actually.
Otherwise I would not have posted the link. The chip numbers are very clear in the (excellent) photos. And I figured that if you already had the chip numbers then they would not be too hard to identify in the pictures.
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Does anyone here think it's easy to make out specifically what sound chip is on either of these boards based on those two pictures?
Err, yes, actually.
Otherwise I would not have posted the link. The chip numbers are very clear in the (excellent) photos. And I figured that if you already had the chip numbers then they would not be too hard to identify in the pictures.
Can you circle the chip numbers in paint or something for those of us that don't have the vision you do? Also, I'm still waiting on the response about the (very) limited search functionality.
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I can't easily edit the photo's - I don't have any way to modify the pictures and then get them reloaded to the place they are stored for the Wiki page. In any case it would then change the purpose in them being displayed as they are.
But for the audio DAC, on both PCB versions it is the chip that is closest to the white plastic block that is the housing for the RCA connectors. BTW, if your browser doesn't let you see the pictures at full resolution, either change your browser settings (in IE6), or download the pictures to view with something else, or change your browser (Firefox makes it easy to zoom in to the full resolution).
Hope this helps.
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Does anyone here think it's easy to make out specifically what sound chip is on either of these boards based on those two pictures?
Err, yes, actually.
Otherwise I would not have posted the link. The chip numbers are very clear in the (excellent) photos. And I figured that if you already had the chip numbers then they would not be too hard to identify in the pictures.
Can you circle the chip numbers in paint or something for those of us that don't have the vision you do? Also, I'm still waiting on the response about the (very) limited search functionality.
Search on this board is what I assume you mean yes?
I don't know exactly what your complaint is but I can find almost anything I want using the search but you have to remember to change the max search date range from the default to over a year to search back all the threads.
It is a default of YABB to keep server load down I guess.
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For us Joe users, it's limited to the last 15. Create a regular account and test it; you'll see what I mean. I know there's a wealth of information here; I just hate to see good data inaccessible via search.
Shawn
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For us Joe users, it's limited to the last 15. Create a regular account and test it; you'll see what I mean. I know there's a wealth of information here; I just hate to see good data inaccessible via search.
Shawn
Ah, okay that has been fixed now. Sorry about that. Search on!
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Hi judb,
Is it me, or has the search button just disappeared? :-?
Les.
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I see it.. http://forum.phathack.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=search is where it links too
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I see it too now - don't know why I couldn't see it before - probably looking in the wrong place - must be going blind.... Thanks.
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For us Joe users, it's limited to the last 15. Create a regular account and test it; you'll see what I mean. I know there's a wealth of information here; I just hate to see good data inaccessible via search.
Shawn
Ah, okay that has been fixed now. Sorry about that. Search on!
:) ;) BRAVO, It's Fixed! Now people won't ask as many questions when they sign up here! :-*
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Well soon I will know the answer for the difference between the two; I just picked up my first complete CX910 from EBAY for $200. Included the VOIT!
http://cgi.ebay.com/KENWOOD-eXcelon-Music-Keg-KHD-CX910-PHATNOISE_W0QQitemZ250017690524QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1498QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I can't wait to diddle with this one...
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Can anyone verify, before I drop another $200 on a KHD-CX910, if in fact the 910 sounds better? Is the hardware interally the same? I mean has anyone with a 710 unplugged it, popped in their DMS into a 910 and been able to tell any difference? Why do the 910's with 10GB DMS's and USB 1 cradles outsell their 710 counterparts? Especially when the auctions read "VOIT is a free download" (obviously which it isn't now).
Anyone who can help, I really appreciate it!
Shawn
To answer my own question, now that I have a CX910. Yes, it sounds better, especially at the higher volume levels. It's just clearer, and I've spent some time testing both.
Just my .02.
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Just to point out, from the photos available on this site the C710 is the board shown with the Burr Brown DAC, the CX910 has the Cirrus Logic...
(http://home.comcast.net/~mrblackc/Music_Keg.jpg)
My first reaction would tell me that the unit with the Burr Brown DAC would sound superior to the one with the standard Cirrus Logic DAC, but there is alot more than just the DAC that has an effect on your final sound output. Obviously your method of compression will ultimately have a much larger effect on how things sound... As long as you're happy with your purchase, that's what matters. Best of luck to ya.
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My first reaction would tell me that the unit with the Burr Brown DAC would sound superior to the one with the standard Cirrus Logic DAC, but there is alot more than just the DAC that has an effect on your final sound output. Obviously your method of compression will ultimately have a much larger effect on how things sound... As long as you're happy with your purchase, that's what matters. Best of luck to ya.
I'm just basing my opinion on using the same DMS cartridge, the same songs at the same compression level. 710 vs the 910, I thought the 910 sounded better at higher volumes.
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Right, and I understood what you meant when you said that. I just wanted to point out that you can achieve a more impactful difference in your music by focusing on more important factors that affect quality. Personally I would much rather have the Burr Brown DAC in a component of mine, and I own a Phatbox which supposedly has it inside (although I've never opened it up to verify...), but I know for a fact that the pre-outs on my particular Phatbox are rather weak. It's possible that the CX910 has a stronger set of outputs, which is why you're hearing what you perceive as more 'clarity' at louder volumes. Is the difference you're hearing a direct result of the swap you made? I would say from the sound of it, yes. I would not however consider the DACs inside the 910 to be superior.