PhatHack

Phatbox / Keg software and support => Phatnoise Hardware Support => Topic started by: XxWickedz28xX on November 14, 2008, 05:02:07 pm

Title: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 14, 2008, 05:02:07 pm
OK, trying to make a long story short.
I got a new comp with Vista. PMM did work for a minute then stopped. I went back to a older comp with XP, and now nothing works. PMM will not recognize DMS, no PHYTSYS on the computer.
Now whenever I plug the DMS into the cradle, the comp doesnt do anything, and when I remove the DMS from the cradle, it shuts down the computer!?!!
I dont mean to be a pain, but could someone help me out. Ive been without the DMS now for a few months and its killing me lol!!! HELP!!!
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on November 14, 2008, 07:42:39 pm
We'll probably need some more information to help you out.  It will be easier if you can stay on the XP machine, too.

Some basic questions:
Hacked or original DMS?
Does the DMS work in your keg?
USB 1.1. or 2.0 cradle?  (If it's 1.1, are the correct drivers installed?)
Does the green light on the cradle light up when you insert the DMS?
You wrote that the phtsys partition doesn't show on the computer, but does the phtdta partition show? 

If the phtdta partition is showing, you may be able to use the Phathack DMS Tools (http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,1641.0.html (http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,1641.0.html)) to repair the DMS.  If nothing is showing up, it's either a cradle issue, or the drive is toast.  The fact that the computer shuts down when you remove the DMS suggests a hardware or software conflict.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 14, 2008, 08:04:13 pm
Quote from: markbowen on November 14, 2008, 07:42:39 pm
We'll probably need some more information to help you out.  It will be easier if you can stay on the XP machine, too.

Some basic questions:
Hacked or original DMS?
Does the DMS work in your keg?
USB 1.1. or 2.0 cradle?  (If it's 1.1, are the correct drivers installed?)
Does the green light on the cradle light up when you insert the DMS?
You wrote that the phtsys partition doesn't show on the computer, but does the phtdta partition show? 

If the phtdta partition is showing, you may be able to use the Phathack DMS Tools (http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,1641.0.html (http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,1641.0.html)) to repair the DMS.  If nothing is showing up, it's either a cradle issue, or the drive is toast.  The fact that the computer shuts down when you remove the DMS suggests a hardware or software conflict.

Hey Mark, thanks for replying! :D
-Original DMS, about 5 years old, but original.
-The DMS does not work in the car, or on the computer.
-It is the 1.1 cradle, not sure if the drivers are installed, everything worked fine before I tried Vista. Once I noticed Vista wasnt working with PMM I went back on this comp(XP) and things went batty.
-The green light comes on, the DMS sounds like its loading, but never does. After a while, the light goes out. Then When I remove the DMS from the cradle, the computer shutsdown and restarts. :-\
-Im not exactly sure where to find either one of those partitions you mentioned. I went under my computer/mangae/storage, and nothing about phtsys or phydta is there. Is this the correct way to find them?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on November 15, 2008, 08:02:49 am
You need to be sure that the proper drivers for the cradle are installed.  Is the XP computer you're using the same one you used before (which worked) or a different one?  If it's a different one, you have to install the drivers.  You can still get them from Phatnoise here:  http://www.phatnoise.com/downloads/drivers.aspx (http://www.phatnoise.com/downloads/drivers.aspx)

(It's possible that you inadvertently installed conflicting USB drivers, which might explain the rebooting.  Check all your currently installed software in Control Panel/Add or Remove Programs.  Also try a different USB port.)

If you have a proper connection, you should see two drives in My Computer, one called phtsys and the other called phtdta.  If you aren't seeing those, there is a connection problem -- or the partitions are corrupted.  Check under Windows Disk Manager, and if you see a drive that shows up as unpartitioned, or something like that, there's your problem.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 15, 2008, 03:56:13 pm
Yup, same XP computer that always worked.

I cant seem to find the PMM disc that came with the misickeg since I uploaded it onto the vista comp. Is there anywhere one the web I redownload it?
Id like to start from scratch on the XP computer if possible. Im gonna try that USB drive link you posted firsth though. But first I'll look to see if I have any other drives installed, and if so I'll remove them all and use the one you sent.

The computer used to beep when I would plug the DMS into the cradle, not anymore though.

I'll post up once I get on the XP comp and load up that USB driver, im posting on teh Vista computer, its more of our daily computer. The XP comp is retired and only used for PMM and some torrents. ;)

As always...THANKS FOR THE HELP!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 16, 2008, 12:24:27 am
ok, so I removed all USB drivers, then installed the one from the link above.

Now The comp beeps again when I plu in and unplug the DMS, but nothing else.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on November 16, 2008, 12:43:55 am
If your computer's not rebooting now, I guess that's some progress...

Nothing else happens though?  The green light on the cradle doesn't come on when you insert the DMS?

You need to find out if the problem is the drive or the USB cradle, through the process of elimination.  If you have an external 2.5" USB case, put the drive from the DMS into it and check.  If the drive works in the case, the problem is the cradle.  Alternatively, if you have a spare working laptop drive, put that drive in the DMS and check it in the cradle.  If it works, then the problem is your DMS drive.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 16, 2008, 01:47:31 am
Yup, the green light comes on the cradle when I plug the DMS into the cradle. It "revs" up like its loading, but nothing ever loads.

The computer also beeps when I plud and unplug the DMS, it didnt before.

The comp would only restart or turn off when I would remove the USB cable from the comp. I was trying to plug it into a different port, and it shut down on me. I didnt try doing that again, Im sure it cant be good for either.

BTW, the DMS does not work in the car.

I dont have access to any of those test methods you listed above, plus Im not sure what half of that stuff is anyway unfortunatley for me. LOL  Im barely computer literate. Is there anything else I could do? It looks like my options are dwindelling slowly to a search on ebay for a new dms and cradle.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: VorTechS on November 17, 2008, 12:49:05 pm
Try installing my DMS tools as Mark suggested, the thread with the download link is here: http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,1641.0.html

Start the application, click on the 'DMS Tools Mode' button and let us know if there is anything listed in the 'DMS Device' dropdown.

If there is, then do the following:

NOTE: YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR MUSIC FILES ON THE DMS FOLLOWING THESE INSTRUCTIONS!

Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 17, 2008, 02:05:25 pm
Thanks Vortech....im gonna give it a shot now.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 17, 2008, 08:40:06 pm
ok, nothing appears in the "dms device" dropdown. That doesnt sound good huh?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on November 18, 2008, 03:51:52 pm
You're right back where you were, still have to determine whether the cradle or the drive is faulty.

With the DMS plugged in, did you check in disk management (right click my computer, left-click manage, select disk management) to see if any "unknown disk" or "unformatted disk" shows up?  If something shows up there, it means the cradle works.  If nothing shows up there, then we still aren't sure if the problem is the drive or the cradle, and you'd have to try the methods I posted earlier.

That said, a USB 2.0 cradle is a worthwhile investment, no matter what.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 18, 2008, 03:57:41 pm
Man, this sucks. I dont have access to any of those methods you posted about.

Nothing out of the normal shows up under disk management, unfortunately.

These pahtbox/dms' are getting hard to find here, for a reasonable price.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: VorTechS on November 19, 2008, 07:43:10 am
Your only other option would be to find someone close to you that can apply the hack to your box for you so you can put a new drive in the DMS.

If there's no-one, I'll do it for the cost of return shipping (I'm in the UK).
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on November 20, 2008, 08:13:06 pm
Thanks for the offer VorTechS. You got PM.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on January 30, 2009, 04:54:19 am
IM BAAAACK!! lol


Ok, so I once again seek the boards knowlegde. :-[

I ended up buying a used DMS. My computer is seeing it fine. Phatnoise works, and I loaded about 4gb of music on it. Saved and ejected like it was supposed to. I put it in the music keg and it doesnt work. WTF!?!?!

There are 2 lights, the left one blinks, the right one is one steady. I dont remember the colors, its close to midnight here :p

Anyone have any tips for this frustrated music keg lover? ???
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: S80_UK on January 30, 2009, 11:49:27 pm
As far as the DMS is concerned, do you know if it is an original?  Do you know if it has ever been repartitioned?  (don't, by the way).  And had your Keg/Phatbox been hacked to allow any hard disk to be used? (I guess not if you had to buy a DMS).

As for the LEDs...  Red LED should be steady - it indicates power is on.  Green LED blinks - it depends what it really looks like. 

For example, when Keg/Phatbox starts up, the green LED flashes two or three times as the software gets loaded off the disk. It should then be mostly off except when navigating the music or playing it.

If it is a fast steady blink for around 5 minutes (could be less, could be more) then the Phatbox may be trying to copy firmware off the disk.  Once done, the box should restart and then just a few irregular blinks as the disk is accessed.

If is is a repeating sequence - so many blinks then a gap, then so many blinks then a gap, then it it trying to indicate some kind of error.  It depends how many blinks there are - and we don't necessarily know all the error codes - but try us anyway.

It generally won't hurt to leave the box flashing the LED for quite a while just to see if it changes (especially if it is just re-copying the firmware into the Phatbox).

Let us know what you see....
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on January 31, 2009, 01:04:01 am
Ahhh, see I only left the DMS in the keg for about 2 minutes.

From what I remember, one light was steady (Red), the other just blinked non stop. It didint seem to blink in any kind of code, but I wll make sure in the morning. So what your saying it that it might have been doing firmware updates or something like that? I dont think I ever updated the Keg in the 5 years Ive had it.

I have no idea if the DMS is original or not. Im gonna take a wild guess and say no. If its not original, will it work in a original keg?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on January 31, 2009, 09:56:12 am
Quote from: XxWickedz28xX on January 31, 2009, 01:04:01 am
I have no idea if the DMS is original or not. Im gonna take a wild guess and say no. If its not original, will it work in a original keg?

If the DMS is not original, it will not work in your keg, since your keg has not been hacked to work with non-original disks.

Let's assume for now that it is an original (and if it's not, you should get your money back), and the reason it's not working is because it was used with a different head unit.  Use the Phathack DMS Tools in Tools mode to update the firmware on the DMS to whatever head unit you have.  Tick the boxes to "install non-hacked firmware" and "reflash box with firmware."

Once that's done, take the DMS out to the car, and with the car radio turned OFF, insert the DMS into your box/keg.  Turn on the radio, and the box should power on.  The green light should be blinking.  Once that starts, you can shut everything off.  Give it 10 minutes, more or less, and then it should stop. 

When it's finished, take the DMS back inside, load some music on it, and then back to the car to test.  You may have to disconnect and reconnect the box to initialize the connection between it and your radio.  If everything has gone right, it should work.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on January 31, 2009, 01:55:33 pm
Mark, Im pretty sure this is a hacked DMS. I got it off of ebay for $100 US. The 4 screws on the back of the DMS all have a tamper proof yellow dye. My original 10g DMS did not have that.

Honestly, original or not, I just want it to work.

I have the DMSTools v2 12 already installed. Should I still follow your directions in your previous post?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on January 31, 2009, 05:04:05 pm
I don't want to tell you how to shop, but don't you ask what you're buying before you pay?  If you bought a hacked drive it will do you absolutely no good, since your box is not hacked to work with non-original drives.

I've never seen a DMS with any tamper-proof dye on the screws, but if it has it and appears not to have been opened, it might be original after all.  Maybe Phatnoise did that on later DMS cartridges, after they realized some people (ahem) had hacked the box and were replacing their overpriced proprietary drives with cheaper higher capacity drives.

Anyway, the only way to find out now is to follow the steps as I previously mentioned.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on January 31, 2009, 05:06:51 pm
Honestly, I had no idea a hacked one wouldnt work. Im a complete noob when it comes to this. So please bear with me.


ok, so Im gonna run the DMS tools as we speak.

Im choosing Kenwood v13.01 only because it the latest version....is that the right thing?

After that, which button do I hit? Update Firmware....Repair DMS.....Repair DMS Full......Create New DMS???

Im lost on this stuff.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on January 31, 2009, 05:18:23 pm
hmmm....just noticed that on the back of the DMS, it says KHD-020G. Maybe it is original?   ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on January 31, 2009, 06:35:47 pm
Do a full DMS repair, as per VorTechS' earlier post.  It will wipe everything off your DMS (including any transferred music) and load the correct firmware.

The sticker that says KHD-020G on the DMS only confirms that the cartridge housing is original (from an original 20GB DMS).  However, I would imagine that the DMS itself is original.  Sellers on eBay would normally state otherwise.  There is also a surplus of the 20GB drives, as they were included with the original VW/Audi Phatboxes, of which there was a huge surplus, once upon a time.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 01, 2009, 12:38:20 am
ok, so I followed VorTechs directions and it said "Repair DMS (FULL) completed sucessfully. Thats a good thing

So from what Ive read I now have to put the DMS in the music keg, let it do its thing, it'll probably a few minutes....once its done then I can bring it back in the house and load music.

Am I correct?

Again, sorry for the newby questions.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 01, 2009, 01:06:59 am
 >:( ok, so I out the DMS in the KEG. The one light comes on and stays steady...im assuming thats power. The other (left light) comes on for a second, goes out, then blinks non stop for what seems like forever.

Im starting to lose faith in this sh*t.  :-[ Im kinda over my head with this stuff.

What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on February 01, 2009, 03:30:45 am
What do you mean by forever?  A firmware flash can take up to 10 minutes.

When you did the DMS repair, did you load the non-hacked firmware, and did you tick the box to re-flash the box?
 
Did you follow what I wrote for updating the firmware?  Put the DMS in with the car/radio off.  Turn the radio on to start the firmware update, then turn everything off (radio off, keys out of the ignition) to let it finish.  Go inside, have a snack or something.  When you come back to the car, there should be no lights on, which means the firmware update was successful.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: Terry_Kennedy on February 01, 2009, 07:31:27 am
Quote from: markbowen on January 31, 2009, 09:56:12 am
Let's assume for now that it is an original (and if it's not, you should get your money back), and the reason it's not working is because it was used with a different head unit.  Use the Phathack DMS Tools in Tools mode to update the firmware on the DMS to whatever head unit you have.

I'd like to clarify this as I've seen this comment made on the boards here a number of times. If the PhatBox itself already works with the car it is in, there is no need to do anything with the "firmware" on the DMS. This "firmware" actually consists of two types of files - a program that is uploaded to the 8051 chip that talks to the head unit, and files on the DMS that the embedded Linux uses on the main ARM CPU. If the PhatBox is already working in a car, there is no need to re-flash the 8051 with the same code over again - it just takes time and confuses users when nothing happens but the green light flashing for 5 minutes, while the PhatBox disappears from the car stereo.

As of any given release date of the firmware, all of the files except the 8051 firmware are compatible with all* PhatBoxes and head units (that the firmware knows about), regardless of head unit. In fact, when PhatNoise was still updating the PhatBox, a number of us would collect the newest files and run them on PhatBoxes they weren't released for.

The only time you can experience problems is if the versions of the files on a new DMS are different from the files you're used to on your old DMS - they may exhibit old bugs (if your original DMS is newer) or change features (if the new DMS is newer). In a case like that, it is a good idea to have the same version on all of your DMS cartridges for consistency.

You might have a problem if you have one of the newer car models and DMS firmware that was released before that car model was supported by the PhatBox. Chances are it will play audio, but the controls may be screwey until an update.

Some DMS cartridges may have optional features like the AAC decoder or SSA plugin, but that doesn't affect the basic operation of the DMS.

*Note: certain versions of the PhatBox had different hardware (Ford comes to mind). I don't know if the above is still true when moving a DMS between one of those and one of the standard PhatBoxes. I think it does, but I'm not positive.

The above is a lot more long-winded than I intended. The gist of it is: It isn't necessary to update the firmware or hack the PhatBox when testing, and telling a user to do so will likely result in un-necessary confustion. Get the box working first, then update the firmware if necessary, then do the hack. 3 different steps, not all at once. It will make things a _lot_ easier to troubleshoot.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 01, 2009, 01:02:50 pm
double post sorry
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 01, 2009, 01:09:59 pm
I didnt quite give it 10 minutes, but it was long enough. I'll try again this morning.

One question....when I put the DMS in the Keg, turned the key on...both lights came on like I mentioned. Once I turned the key off to let the firmware do its thing, both lights went off....are they supposed to stay on or go out?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: VorTechS on February 02, 2009, 11:55:19 am
As Terry says, never do a hack and firmware update at the same time!

The tools already includes an option to re-install the PHTSYS files in case of corruption, whilst not requiring a firmware update through the use of the option 'Reflash box'.  This defaults to 'Checked' when installing non-hacked firmware... which might be a bit daft, and I thought I changed it at some point, or perhaps it's changed for the next version.

I'll try and make the tools a bit cleverer and check the XML file to determine which firmware is already applied to the DMS to automatically check the 'Reflash' option.

As for the on-going problem.  The 'new' DMS probably did not have the correct version of firmware on it.  The answer to this problem is simple if you know what version of firmware is already installed on the box.  As Terry again says, a firmware update is only required to add functionality to the box communicating to and from the head unit, or to resolve bugs or re-instate lost functionality.

So, do you know which version of firmware was last applied to your PhatBox?  If so, then run a 'firmware update' selecting the version of firmware you already have installed.  Check the option 'Install non-hacked firmware' and uncheck the option 'Reflash box'.  (Check the option install AAC plugin at your discretion).  Once done, if you don't already have playlists created through PMM, then load up a single playlist.

Then take the DMS out to the car and try it out.  Now, if things STILL don't work, we need to take a look at a few things.

1) The logs from the Firmware Update process, which you can find in My Documents\PhatHack Media Manager\Logs
2) Installing the RC pairs so that we can analyze the log it produces (Assuming the box does actually fire up) to see where the problem is.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 02, 2009, 06:06:08 pm
I GOT IT WORKING!!!

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP!!

I did exactly what Mark said, using VorTechs DMS Tools. I updated the firmware, and that was it.

Its got about 14g of music on it now, its so great to have my music back at the tip of my fingertips.

I cant thank you guys enough for the help and patience.





So, now that I have the original dead 10g DMS, what can I do with that? Is it garbage, or can I do something with it?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: S80_UK on February 02, 2009, 06:41:42 pm
Quote from: XxWickedz28xX on February 02, 2009, 06:06:08 pm
So, now that I have the original dead 10g DMS, what can I do with that? Is it garbage, or can I do something with it?
Glad you got there in the end.

The original DMS though dead (presumably) is still useful for the case parts.  If you want you can sell them to one of us... ;) Or use it for your next upgrade....

Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 02, 2009, 07:38:45 pm
Well, Id like to try and use it. Maybe make a spare incase the new one takes a dump on me.

Any tips on what to do with it?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on February 02, 2009, 10:00:11 pm
As you already have 14GB of music on a 20GB DMS, what you should do next is hack your box and put a higher capacity drive in the case from the dead DMS.

Consider it as protection.  Should your 20GB DMS fail, you'll be stuck again and have to shell out for another original one.  Once you've hacked the box, you can use any drive.

The hack is pretty straightforward, using the Hack Wizard mode in VorTechS' tools.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 03, 2009, 12:08:22 am
Ive been looking for laptop hard drives all day. I think I would get a 80g. Anything more for me would be overkill.

I took the dead dms apart and seen that the DMS connector comes right off and should slip right on a new hard drive, pretty straightforward.

Are there any walkthroughs here that will show me what needs to be done to the new drive once its in the DMS case?

Ive read on here that I can use my new original 20g DMS to hack the box so that I can use a hacked DMS. Will I have to erase the music off of the 20g before I apply the hack?
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: S80_UK on February 03, 2009, 12:16:37 am
No need to erase any music in order to apply the hack.

If you buy a laptop drive it must be the older type with a parallel ATA (also known as IDE) interface. The connector on the drive has two rows of pins - 44 in total.  You cannot use the newer SATA (Serial ATA types).  The Drive may have a jumper option (a small push on connector). This must be set to Master (often that means there is no jumper installed but the drive label should say).  A drive that runs at 5400 rpm is preferable to  a faster 7200 rpm drive.

If in doubt ask here with details of the drive that you intend to buy.  Most brands are OK. Western Digital, Seagate, Hitachi, etc.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 03, 2009, 12:54:26 am
Cool. This site has been real helpful.


So, to boil it down.....im looking for a 80g, ata, 5400 rpm max. After that it should be a piece of cake.....lol hopefully.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: S80_UK on February 03, 2009, 01:08:10 am
And as of this evening I only have 54MB free on my 160GB drive... 

You can never have too much - I would go for a 120 - it'll hardly cost any different, and you never know what you may want to put on it.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: markbowen on February 03, 2009, 01:25:23 am
On Newegg, the difference in price between 80GB and 160GB drives is 5-10 dollars.  Spend the little bit extra.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: Terry_Kennedy on February 03, 2009, 11:33:42 am
Quote from: markbowen on February 03, 2009, 01:25:23 am
On Newegg, the difference in price between 80GB and 160GB drives is 5-10 dollars.  Spend the little bit extra.

And even the 250GB WD2500BEVE (the largest disk ever for a DMS) is only $79 these days. PATA notebook drives are going to become harder and harder to find as production shifts to SATA. If you ever think you might need the space, I'd go for it.
Title: Re: Help, Music keg no longer works.
Post by: XxWickedz28xX on February 03, 2009, 03:01:43 pm
yeah, im definatley going to need more space. As we speak im loading up another 4g of music!

When I had the 10g I couldnt fill it. Now that I got this 20g DMS, I might fill it up in a week.

120g sounds like alot, but better safe than sorry.