Phat* (PhatVoice / PMM / PhatHack / etc.) Windows 7 support / issues / answers

[Terry_Kennedy]

Firstly, this isn't intended to step on the toes of the other Phat* projects - if any of the developers of those tools would rather these discussions take place in the project-specific topics, I'll be glad to move them.

With the release of Windows 7, a number of folks who said "Give me XP or give me death!" and avoided Vista are now testing Windows 7. I'm one of those people. So far I've been quite pleased with it (7 Ultimate x64) - it is a lot faster than XP on identical hardware, and I've only got a list of 4 open issues at the moment. Of course, I'm running on recent hardware (2-year-old Dells) - things would likely be a lot worse on older systems.

PhatVoice
As you probably know, I'm the maintainer of PhatVoice. While it hasn't had a release in 6 years (V2.0 was released in October, 2003) the "open issue" list is quite small (and, for the most part, documented in the User's Manual). I have been testing it with an eye towards full Windows 7 logo certification. At the moment it runs properly in both Windows 7 x32 and x64 with AT&T NV Crystal16 and Mike16. The only issues are:

• "Old" Windows voices like "Microsoft SAM" generate "Speak error" because the underling MS SAPI engine doesn't support them.
• Certain SAPI strings found in the optional subs.txt file are no longer valid SAPI and generate a "speak error". As an example, <pron sym="m ey 1 ax & k uw l 1 p ax"/>.
• The other Natural Voices have not yet been tested by me under Windows 7.

Cradle and Drivers (USB2 version)
The stock PhatNoise USB2 cradle doesn't work properly with some drives that worked fine in XP. For example, a genuine Phatnoise 60GB DMS works fine in Windows 7 x64, but a 250GB WD2500BEVE drive in a DMS generates a 5-minute hang in the Windows "Installing drivers" dialog box, followed by an "Installation failed" error. That same DMS and cradle work fine in XP.

I am working on a retrofit circuit board which will replace the one in the PhatNoise cradle and provide full compatibility with Windows 7 (and, presumably, Vista). I expect I'll be able to sell this board for between $35 and $50, depending on how many I make. I will publish the full specs (schematic, parts list, PCB layout, and firmware source) once it is completed, so that no-one will ever be stuck with this problem (of unsupported cradles) ever again.

Edit: This circuit board should also fit in the USB1 cradles, which will allow them to be updated to be useful, instead of doorstops. Even if you're running an OS where the USB1 cradle works, upgrading to a USB 2 board will greatly improve file transfer to the DMS (assuming your computer has a USB 2 port, otherwise the new board will still run at USB1 speeds).

PhatNoise Music Manager 2.35
I use the older Music Manager as it is what I'm used to and it does the small number of things I need (basically, signing playlists and building the database) without being too obtrusive. Initial testing with over 650 CDs (All artists A through E in my media collection didn't turn up any problems when populating the 60GB DMS. Testing with a full 250GB DMS will need to wait for a week or so until the prototype boards for the new cradle arrive from the PCB house.

[VorTechS]

For those that don't know, I am the author and one of the maintainers of PhatHack Media Manager, and the DMS Tools.

PhatHack Media Manager (PhatMM)

PhatHack Media Manager is confirmed to work under the following Operating Systems:

Windows XP (all editions and service packs) [Out of the Box]
Windows Vista (all editions and service packs) [Out of the box, a minor issue see notes below]
Windows 7 (all editions) [requires SAPI 5.1 installation, see instructions below]

Vista Issues
At present it appears there is only one, and that is that the Media Player exhibits some issues running WinAMP plugins, which are entirely localized to the relevant plugin and are not the fault of the application (that I can establish).

The WinAMP Advanced Visualization Studio randomly generates exceptions that I have yet to ascertain a resolution for.  It's possible 'Run As Administrator' resolves the problem but I have yet to prove tihs.  Windows DEP (Data Execution Prevention) appears to be being triggered whilst running this plugin, which results in Windows closing the application to prevent what it thinks is 'dangerous code execution'.

Windows 7 Issues
Windows 7 does NOT include SAPI 5.1 (Speech API Library version 5.1) out of the box.
A separate installer is available (the standard AT&T Installer (speech.msi) that WILL install and run correctly.  To do this, use the following instructions:

1) Download and save the file from the following site (registration required): http://phatnoise.us/PhatNoise/request.php?mirror.36.3
2) Browse to the save location using Windows explorer, and locate the file 'speech.msi'
3) Right-click on the file
4) Select 'Properties' from the popup menu
5) Select the 'Compatability' tab
6) Ensure the option 'Run this program in compatability mode for' is checked
7) From the dropdown either select 'Windows XP (Service Pack 3)' or 'Previous Versions of Windows' depending on the options available to you

...and then double click on the file to start installation, confirm the security dialog to allow the installation to continue.

PhatHack DMS Tools
(Results will follow soon)

[S80_UK]

Useful thread.  Thanks.  I am still in XP land, but playing with Win 7 on another box before maybe taking the plunge. 

[Terry_Kennedy]

PhatHack DMS Tools
(Results will follow soon)

Now that I have a prototype of the new cradle circuit board running, I was able to test this. Note that I'm not the DMS Tools author, just a user - anything VorTechS says should be taken as definitive.

It looks to be working fine, except that certain operations (like partitioning and formatting the DMS) need to be done using "Run as administrator", or you'll get an error that the procedure failed without any indication of why. The best thing would probably to set the flag in the image at build time that says "This needs to run as administrator", so that when a user runs it they get that popup. Otherwise, the code would need to be checked to find all the places it invokes something that needs administrator privs.

[VorTechS]

Terry, thanks for the confirmation ... the flag is ready to run in the new version of the DMS tools.
I may have a way of distributing the tools again from my machine, but need some more testing before I can release...

[MarkAardvark]

FWIW - I would love to get a USB 2.0 cradle that works with Win7 and the hard drive I've upgraded to.

I had issues with my cradle when I upgraded to a Seagate Momentus 120GB hard drive under XP (sporadically able to connect).

I finally read a thread that pointed me in the right direction - I was using the front USB ports on my homebuilt HTPC, and by switching to the rear ports that are connected directly to the motherboard I am reliably connecting to the drive with XP.

This is in a dual boot machine, and when I boot into Win7 I cannot reliably connect to the drive at the OS level 

Cheers - Mark

[Terry_Kennedy]

FWIW - I would love to get a USB 2.0 cradle that works with Win7 and the hard drive I've upgraded to.

Best thing to do is to vote in the poll over here. That topic also has updated status on the project.

[Steveo369]

One thing that you may want to add to this thread (and make it sticky):
Installation of AT&T Natural Voices:
The install routine checks the Windows version and will not install.  A similar issue was present in Windows Vista.  I found that if I did the following, the ATT NV routine would install correctly:
Right Click the Phatnoise Media Manager installer fiel (.exe)
Choose the compatibility tab
Select Run This Program in Compatibility Mode for: "Windows XP (Service Pack 2)".
Select "Run this program as an administrator".

There is also another potential workaround from the Vista days, using a hacked version of the NV installer and dropping it into the correct directory during installation:
http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,896.0.html

[Terry_Kennedy]

Installation of AT&T Natural Voices:
The install routine checks the Windows version and will not install.  A similar issue was present in Windows Vista.

AT&T Natural Voices 1.2 was obsolete long before PhatNoise exited the business. I don't know why they didn't upgrade to the 1.4 release; perhaps it was because AT&T wanted to remove the standalone product (they wanted to license it to speech generation services).

The NextUp 16KHz Natural Voices 1.4 (at least Crystal and Mike) install and run (tested with PhatVoice) just fine on Windows 7 x64 - no need to run the installer in compatibility or administrator modes.

[Steveo369]

Thanks for the info Terry.  I thought people might want to know about getting the original versions of the NV's installed.  I don't particularly want to pony up an extra $25 to purchase the updated version of the Mike and Crystal voices simply because I am upgrading my OS...

[Terry_Kennedy]

Thanks for the info Terry.  I thought people might want to know about getting the original versions of the NV's installed.  I don't particularly want to pony up an extra $25 to purchase the updated version of the Mike and Crystal voices simply because I am upgrading my OS...

True. I'm so used to the 1.4 version that I didn't really consider that - the 16KHz voices sound so much better, and if you want voices other than Crystal & Mike, 1.4 is required (I don't know of anyone selling add-on voices for the 1.2 / 8KHz that PhatNoise shipped).

[VorTechS]

Updated to include testing results for Windows 7, now working with the latest version of PhatHack Media Manager

Note: instructions for SAPI installation will be useful for those who installed PhatNoise MM and need to get the speech working without re-running the entire setup process again.

[GundamWZero]

I sure can't wait.... I can't load any drivers for my Music Keg on to Windows 7. Win7 can not find the drivers for it. I am using the USB1 rev. A Cradle...

[JasonR]

Cradle and Drivers (USB2 version)
The stock PhatNoise USB2 cradle doesn't work properly with some drives that worked fine in XP. For example, a genuine Phatnoise 60GB DMS works fine in Windows 7 x64, but a 250GB WD2500BEVE drive in a DMS generates a 5-minute hang in the Windows "Installing drivers" dialog box, followed by an "Installation failed" error. That same DMS and cradle work fine in XP.

I joined specifically so I could comment on this issue, in case someone else hits the problem.

I have a five year old unhacked Audi PhatBox, original 20 GB DMS, USB 2.0 cradle. When I upgraded to Vista several years ago I ran into some problems trying to get the PhatNoise software working and never had time to resolve it. I've been running around with the same 20 GB of music for the past three years (!!) not driving much because I work at home now but still slowly going crazy, pointlessly burning stuff on temporary CDs just to listen to new stuff. Finally finding the time to get the PhatBox working again. Now I have Windows 7.

I have a Lenovo ThinkPad T-510 laptop, docked (MiniDock Plus Series 3), running Windows 7 x64. After perusing the PhatHack forums for a while I determined that step 1 is to just plug the cradle into the computer, DMS into the cradle, and see if it is recognized, before installing any software.

There are six USB ports on the back of the dock. I picked one, plugged in the cradle and then the DMS. Didn't work. I got the same behavior that Terry got. Device Manager showed a USB Mass Storage Device that initially looked ok, but after a few minutes changed to a yellow exclamation point with the Device Status of Code 10: The device failed to start.

I tried several different ports. Still didn't work. I rebooted the system. While the DMS and cradle were plugged in, the system would actually hang at the Lenovo POST screen and never boot into Windows (waited five minutes). After unplugging the DMS and power cycling it (without DMS plugged in), Windows booted again. But still couldn't get Windows to recognize the DMS.

I noticed MarkAardvark's comment about using the front USB ports. I tried plugging it into the USB ports on the side of the laptop rather than the ones on the dock. It worked! Out of curiosity, I tried the ports in the back again (it would be inconvenient to have to plug and unplug the cradle when docking and undocking). Now those work too. I'm not sure why, but they do.

So, in sum: If you see this behavior, try different ports. If using a laptop, try ports on the laptop itself rather than going through a dock.

Many, many thanks to everyone running PhatHack and those writing the software that allows us to keep this thing going.

Jason

[JasonR]

An update. The problem I experienced may not be related to which USB ports I selected. Instead it may be related to whether I plug the cradle into the computer and then insert the DMS, or the other way around. I've been trying the former, believing it is the logical order, as you want leave the cradle plugged in all the time and periodically dock the DMS with it to add music. But now it looks like I have to do it the other way (dock DMS to cradle, then plug cradle into computer) in order for the DMS to be recognized...

Jason

[Terry_Kennedy]

An update. The problem I experienced may not be related to which USB ports I selected. Instead it may be related to whether I plug the cradle into the computer and then insert the DMS, or the other way around. I've been trying the former, believing it is the logical order, as you want leave the cradle plugged in all the time and periodically dock the DMS with it to add music. But now it looks like I have to do it the other way (dock DMS to cradle, then plug cradle into computer) in order for the DMS to be recognized...

It is somewhat random. The firmware in the cradle was never tested to work with Windows newer than XP. There are a number of timing conditions which depend on the type of USB chips in the computer, whether there is a USB hub in the middle, and what type of disk drive is inside the DMS. It also depends on the phase of the moon and local gravity fluctuations

[javip]

Hi, don't know if this is related to my problem! Have all the hardware working, PhatBox Media Player and installed on BMW E39, 2003; however, trying to install the Phatnoise Music Manager from the CD but will not install; first my dvd player would not load the CD then I installed a new driver and it worked, started installation all the way until "regestering fonts" and that was it! it hangs and does not go any further! Please, what do I need to do?
Thank you very much for your help!