Poll

Would you be interested in a DMS cradle upgrade?

Yes, and I have a USB 2 cradle now
15 (71.4%)
Yes, and I have an older cradle now
4 (19%)
It depends, let me think about it
2 (9.5%)
Nope, not interested
0 (0%)
Other - please specify in reply
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: January 20, 2010, 11:47:09 am

Author Topic: Interested in a Windows Vista/7 capable USB cradle upgrade? (and maybe Mac too)  (Read 21293 times)

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Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Per this post over in a different sub-forum:

I am working on a retrofit circuit board which will replace the one in the PhatNoise cradle and provide full compatibility with Windows 7 (and, presumably, Vista). I expect I'll be able to sell this board for between $35 and $50, depending on how many I make. I will publish the full specs (schematic, parts list, PCB layout, and firmware source) once it is completed, so that no-one will ever be stuck with this problem (of unsupported cradles) ever again.

This circuit board should also fit in the USB1 cradles, which will allow them to be updated to be useful, instead of doorstops. Even if you're running an OS where the USB1 cradle works, upgrading to a USB 2 board will greatly improve file transfer to the DMS (assuming your computer has a USB 2 port, otherwise the new board will still run at USB1 speeds).

I have a prototype up and running and have tested it with PMM (Music, not Media), PhatVoice, and the PhatHack DMS Tools.

That's sufficient for my needs, but I'm willing to go ahead and do a real PC board that will fit in the cradle, replacing the existing board. The same power supply used for the USB 2 cradle will work; the older USB1 cradles will likely need a replacement power supply as well.

Per my original post, I expect the complete board will cost between $35 and $50. I'd like to get an idea of how many people would be interested in purchasing one of these so I can make a decision on whether or not to proceed. I'm not asking for a committment to buy, just gauging interest.

For the techno-geeks here, the new design uses the Cypress Semiconductor EZ-USB AT2LP CY7C68300C. Here's a desktop snapshot with all of the relevant info (click on the pic for a full-size version):



Edit - if there are any Mac users who would like to try a prototype and report back if it works on a Mac, I'd be glad to send you one of the 2 prototypes for testing. Note that you'll need to remove the drive from the DMS and install it on the prototype board for the test (the prototype boards don't have a DMS connector, only a mini-IDE one).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 12:01:23 pm by Terry_Kennedy »

Offline gsedun

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Hi Terry - when will you be selling the circuit board for the DMS for Windows 7?

Garry

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Hi Terry - when will you be selling the circuit board for the DMS for Windows 7?

This will depend on the amount of interest I get - I'll need to do a rather sizable order (probably 50 pieces or so) of the PC boards in order to get the boards at a decent per-unit price (the board houses charge a lot for setup and then a smaller amount for each board). So I'd like to see interest in at least 10-15 completed boards. Figure 30-45 days after I send the order to the board house to get finished blank boards back, plus time to assemble and test them. Given that this is a rather simple board, I'll probably take the risk of going directly to the production batch of boards rather than doing a couple of test boards first. Most anything that would go wrong could be solved with a razor blade and wire - I wouldn't anticipate needing to scrap the boards and start over. Also, I haven't checked on the availability of the various oddball parts needed, like the connector that attaches to the DMS - some places will want a larger order for a shorter lead time, so this also depends on the level of interest.

In any event, this means we're looking at mid-January at the absolute earliest, and probably February as a more realistic date.

Offline jheyerman

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Deleted - didn't see poll...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 12:44:55 pm by jheyerman »

Offline S80_UK

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Given that this is a rather simple board, I'll probably take the risk of going directly to the production batch of boards rather than doing a couple of test boards first.
Rather you than me...   :P

Also, I haven't checked on the availability of the various oddball parts needed, like the connector that attaches to the DMS - some places will want a larger order for a shorter lead time, so this also depends on the level of interest.
Did anyone ever identify a source for the connector?  My recollection over the past 2 or 3 years is that this was never established (but I could be wrong, of course).

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Rather you than me...   :P

;D

I'm reasonably confident, given that I have a prototype working with a normal 44-pin 2.5" IDE connector. So all I have to do is get the form factor correct and correctly pin the DMS connector.

Quote
Did anyone ever identify a source for the connector?  My recollection over the past 2 or 3 years is that this was never established (but I could be wrong, of course).

I'm about 95% sure it is an AMP/Tyco product. I'm researching the exact part number and should have an answer in a day or two.

Worst case, I'll do the replacement boards with a "core charge" - once you get the replacement board and install it, you send your old board back to me for a credit and I re-use the connector from it for another new board. I have about a dozen assorted cradles here, which will be enough to get started.

Offline markbowen

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I have a prototype up and running and have tested it with PMM (Music, not Media), PhatVoice, and the PhatHack DMS Tools.

I'm interested, but could you also test it with Media Manager?
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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I'm about 95% sure it is an AMP/Tyco product. I'm researching the exact part number and should have an answer in a day or two.

Well, I was wrong >:(

It is a KEL 8802-050-170S-F.

Edit: Updated post with current part number and removed comment about part being unavailable.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 07:20:02 am by Terry_Kennedy »

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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I'm interested, but could you also test it with Media Manager?

I will. Note that Media Manager apparently blacklists certain drives (or has a list of permitted drives), so work-arounds may still be needed.

I could provide a version of the cradle that would always report the drive as one of the PMM-recognized drive models instead of the drive model actually in the cradle, but that might cause more problems than it solves. I certainly don't want to do that as the default behavior.

Edit: I REELY can't speel ;D
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 02:25:05 pm by Terry_Kennedy »

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Things are progressing on the software front. The prototype boards now identify themselves as "PhatHack Cradle" and have been verified to work on XP, Vista, and Windows 7:



Who is the person to get official permission to use the PhatHack name? Sam?

What do you think this should be called, if not PhatHack Cradle?

Offline markbowen

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I will. Note that Media Manager apparenlty blacklists certain drives (or has a list of permitted drives), so work-arounds may still be needed

Anyone using a WD drive should not have this problem, as WD drives are "allowed."  However, with the 250/320 GB drives and the original cradle in XP, it is always necessary to first start Media Manager and then insert the DMS.  I'd be happy to have a cradle that is less fussy in XP, let alone one that works in Windows 7.
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Just a FYI update - the connectors (which have the longest lead time) have been ordered (26 pieces) and should be here in 5 to 7 weeks.

While people aren't exactly trampling each other to vote in the poll, it looks like there's enough potential interest to proceed with a small batch of boards.

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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I'm interested, but could you also test it with Media Manager?

Note that Media Manager apparently blacklists certain drives (or has a list of permitted drives), so work-arounds may still be needed.

I could provide a version of the cradle that would always report the drive as one of the PMM-recognized drive models instead of the drive model actually in the cradle, but that might cause more problems than it solves. I certainly don't want to do that as the default behavior.

Ok, I tested the new cradle with PhatNoise Media Manager 3.92 under Windows 7 x64. It seems to work, or as well as PMM will in that environment, anyway. PMM needs to "Run as Administrator", so auto-play on DMS insertion is broken (it runs as a regular user and keeps telling the user to call customer service because items couldn't be inserted in the registry). I loaded 87 playlists consisting of 915 tracks which were 6.2GB in total size onto the DMS in this environment.

The DeviceDMS.dll file in PMM not only blacklists certain drives, but it also has a list of the USB device IDs of cradles it will work with. The new cradle doesn't have the same USB ID, since it is using a very different chip. So there's no point in having the new cradle report one of the blessed drive models, since a patched DLL will still be needed to deal with the device ID issue.

Here's a snapshot of PMM 3.92 loading files onto a Samsung 160GB drive in the new PhatHack Cradle:


Offline VorTechS

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Terry, do you plan to run similar tests with PhatHack MM with your board, or would you like me to go through this?
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Terry, do you plan to run similar tests with PhatHack MM with your board, or would you like me to go through this?

I'll be glad to do it, but having the author (you) do it might add a bit more weight. We can see if that's needed after I do the basic tests.

Do you want to PM me with a place to download the code you'd like me to try?

There's also a new poll up over in the software section, to get a feel for what package and version people are running.

Also, for package authors or regular users who want to test complicated scenarios - I can hook up the new cradle to one of my systems and turn over control of the system to you for a specified testing interval at a mutually-agreeable date and time.

Offline VorTechS

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Sounds good, I'm not happy with the current TTS 'workaround' so I'm moving my speech routines over to using managed code which should mean no further issues with voice generation.  I'll drop you a PM when this is done, and tested with a link to the latest installer.
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)

Offline Cyberman

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is this board ready yet? i think my board is dead.

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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is this board ready yet? i think my board is dead.

Nope, not yet. Best guess at this point is early February, assuming everything goes as planned (7 week lead time on the cradle connectors, only ordered once the poll achieved 10 positive votes).

Offline Steveo369

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I have two working USB2 cradles, but I'd like a bit better compatibility, as well as to help support the effort to hack the DeviceDMS.dll utility in PMediaM v3.92 so that we can get better drive brand compatibility.

I just finally got around to hacking my two PB's this weekend, and did a test new DMS with an old 40gb Hitachi drive I had lying around.  I'm currently contemplating shopping for some larger HD's to put into both DMS cartridges.  Need to do some more searching on the boards about the 160gb+ limitations/hacks/etc.

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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I'm currently contemplating shopping for some larger HD's to put into both DMS cartridges.  Need to do some more searching on the boards about the 160gb+ limitations/hacks/etc.

Just about any parallel ATA hard drive will work. SATA drives aren't electrically compatible, and SSD's done work for unknown reasons.

Having said that, your choices for large PATA drives are pretty limited. At 250GB and above, the only available units are the WD2500BEVE (250GB) and the WD3200BEVE (320GB). Manufacturer link here.

PATA drives are going the way of the dodo bird, so if you want one I'd suggest buying it now.