Author Topic: 250GB issues?  (Read 31717 times)

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Offline markbowen

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250GB issues?
« on: February 12, 2008, 08:39:44 am »
I decided to go all the way and bought a 250GB WD 25000BEVE to use in my Kenwood Keg, but I'm having all kinds of problems.  I'm pretty sure I've got a dud, but I'm wondering if anyone else using a 250 (I've seen at least a few other people on this board using them) has had any issues getting it up and running.  VorTechs Windows tools couldn't create a DMS with it, so I had to use the Phathack CD.  Then PMM comes up with a number of errors and ultimately fails to load, I get write delay failures and the phtdta partition disappears.  When I run a repair in the Phathack CD it always says the partition table is corrupt and does the repair, but it never works.  That's in XP, Vista takes forever to load a driver and then won't even populate the volumes.

Thorough disk scans complete without hanging, but I am nonetheless fairly sure I have a dud.  But is it possible there is some issue with the cradle (USB2) and 250GB drives?
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 09:50:07 am »
Does it work properly if Phatnoise Media Manager is closed?  I had one where I had to use it with Phatnoise Music Manager instead... see http://forum.phathack.com/index.php/topic,620.0.html

Offline Terry_Kennedy

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 10:32:26 pm »
I'm wondering if anyone else using a 250 (I've seen at least a few other people on this board using them) has had any issues getting it up and running.  VorTechs Windows tools couldn't create a DMS with it, so I had to use the Phathack CD.  Then PMM comes up with a number of errors and ultimately fails to load, I get write delay failures and the phtdta partition disappears.  When I run a repair in the Phathack CD it always says the partition table is corrupt and does the repair, but it never works.  That's in XP, Vista takes forever to load a driver and then won't even populate the volumes.

I've built 3 DMS's with that drive and haven't had any problem (XP Pro, USB2 cradle, PMM 2.30). I had some initial issues where the Windows hack tool wouldn't create the partitions, but that was fixed a couple versions ago.

A delayed write failure almost always indicates a hardware problem.

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 11:23:32 pm »
PMM 2.30 doesn't have the issue I was mentioning.  Have you tried it with the new Phatnoise Media Manager?

Offline markbowen

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 06:59:39 am »
Sam, I remember you had issues with the 160GB drives at least initially, but at least some 160s (Samsung, for instance) will work with Media Manager up to 3.76 (not 3.92).  So, theoretically a 250 should not have problems either, but it won't even work with 3.76.  I'm inclined to believe it's a bad HDD because VorTechs' Windows tool just would not work with the drive, the PhatHack CD kept reporting a corrupt partition table, and the Phathack bad block check kept restarting.  A surface test in Windows ran okay, but another test using the surface scan in Paragon Partition Manager just hung up.  And Windows Vista just would not recognize the partitions at all (and yes, I know, Vista sucks).  The write delay failures also point to a bad disk.

I'll be exchanging the drive and hopefully will not run into the same issues.  However, it would still be useful to know if anyone has a 250GB DMS working with any version of Media Manager.
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 09:27:44 pm »
I say this because you describe what my problems were exactly... but it could go either way.  Best bet is to load up the 250GB with nothing running on the computer (PMM etc) and try a bad sector check or just try copying files to it.  You didn't have PMM running when you tried these tests, did you?

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 09:30:09 pm »
Oh and if you have a laptop... you could try it in there directly...

Offline markbowen

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 11:55:18 pm »
Yeah, in somewhat limited testing using a USB caddy it seemed to work fine on its own, but as I wrote it couldn't complete a bad block test under Linux with the Phathack CD, neither could it complete a sector scan in Partition Manager.  It passed a Windows surface scan, but the MS disk tools are not 100% reliable -- they'll catch a badly hosed drive, but not always a subtly hosed one. 

I'm still exchanging this 250 and hoping for better luck next time.  If it won't work with Media Manager, then I'm just screwed I guess.  (Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to return the drive, only exchange.)
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 12:15:05 am »
Have you tried MUSIC manager?

Offline markbowen

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 07:31:39 pm »
No, I haven't tried it with Music Manager.  If the second drive won't work with Media Manager, I guess I may have to go to Music Manager, which sucks in comparison.
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline markbowen

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 12:12:39 pm »
Update for anyone else who might be interested in using a 250GB DMS:

I exchanged the WD 250GB drive I had and assumed was bad for a new one.  This one at least works in the Windows Phathack DMS Tools, where the other one did not.  However, it would seem that there certainly are issues with Media Manager and the 250GB drives.  3.92 gives the "error retrieving DMS ID" that also happens with some other drives, and just won't work.  That's a shame, because as a program 3.92 is the most stable (no crashes when updating the database, as I get in every earlier version), and it has the added benefit of being able to edit the voice prompts.

3.76 seems to work at first, but then I get write delay errors and the phtsys partition disappears. 

I've gone down to 3.51, which seems like it might do.  I did manage to create a playlist, transfer files and do a full save/eject without incident.  However, it is sluggish at first loading the DMS (even with nothing on it), and I do get infrequent write delay errors and disappearing partitions.  I'll see how it works and if it becomes too unstable, I'll go down to 3.42 and 3.22 to see if either of those works any better.

Music Manager does seem to work with 250GB DMS, but if it comes down to using a 250GB and Music Manager or a 160GB and Media Manager, I'll use the smaller drive -- if only because I much prefer to be able to have bands properly named with "the" or "a" and still be able to sort alphabetically (e.g. "The Who" instead of just "Who").
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 12:32:55 pm »
You may be able to load the music all on with Music Manager, then go through and sort etc with media manager... most of the issues seemed to be when actually copying data to the drive

Offline VorTechS

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 12:33:51 pm »
Erm, *cough*

Les and I have been doing a bit of research - there's an outside probability that the partitions aren't being created correctly by the tools.  I'm currently investigating this one as thoroughly as I can and have managed to get myself on a Windows Kernel Driver mailing list where at least one person is examining the code.

One thing I noticed, is that if I modify the parameters being passed to mkdosfs then the disk doesn't look right  (PHTSYS and PHTDTA show the same partition size, spanning the entire size of the disk).

I think this is pointing to a partition problem... but won't know for a little while yet.
If it does turn out to be a problem with the code - I apologise sincerely to all those that were advised to get new disks!

I'll keep you updated of progress.
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)

Offline VorTechS

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 02:18:53 pm »
Okay, sbingner and I have done a little digging.  There doesn't appear to be an issue with the partition offsets - but there may be an issue with hidden sectors.  I've removed the hidden sectors with the exception of the one required for PHTSYS and interestingly the problem with the PHTDTA partition taking forever to mount looks like it has gone away.

Mark, is the block size on your drive 512?  It looks to me like the partition side of things is taking care of the block size, cylinders etc... but the formatting is hardcoded to use a block size of 512.

I can send you a copy of the new tools with the changes I just made if you'd like to give them a go?
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)

Offline markbowen

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 03:26:19 pm »
Actually...I forgot to mention that the Windows Tools were not 100% successful at setting up this drive.  It put the phtsys and phtdta in the wrong order.  I didn't think changing the drive letters was a good idea, so I ended up reformatting and partitioning using the ol' Phathack CD.  I used the Windows Tools to load the firmware etc.  I'm away from my home computer at the moment, so I don't know what the block size is, but I assume it is 512 since that should be the default.

Since I haven't gone too far in loading up the drive yet, go ahead and send me the new tools and I'll give it a whirl.  You can either send directly to my e-mail, or PM me a link, and I'll report back later today.
Kenwood DNX7200/Kenwood KHD-C710 Keg/320GB DMS

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2008, 07:25:17 pm »
I suspect the order was some fluke of the OS... the physical order is hard-coded into the way it sets up the drive and it shuld be impossible for that to swap.   Did you notice the size of PHTSYS and PHTDTA?

Offline S80_UK

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2008, 10:49:47 pm »
As an aside, but since it could be of interest - I also found that USB caddies can have - ummm - interesting effects.  I have one which causes Media Manager 3.92 to complain that it cannot identify the drive signature (so we now know for sure that at least 3.92 checks for that in some way, which could explain a few things).  USB - ATA bridge chip type = GL811E.  That was with a smaller 80G drive. 

As VorTechS mentioned - we are also digging into the partitioning generated by his current tools.  Watch this space...

Les.

Offline VorTechS

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 12:37:38 am »
sbingner:  S80_UK just pointed me to the fact that the MBRWiz program is showing the PHTDTA partition as FAT16x, and not FAT32

I wonder if it's that older version of mkdosfs that doesn't recognise larger disks (after all it was written in 2001 IIRC)

I check the code and the partition types are definately being explicitly set to PARTITION_FAT32.

S80_UK/MarkBowen: Try using the newer mkdosfs I sent you to re-format the PHTDTA partition and see if that modifies the result of the MBRWiz.
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)

Offline sbingner

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 04:47:17 am »
Did you forget to get -F 32 on the mkdosfs command line?

Anyway, the setting in the partition table isn't really used... it's just for reference, when it's mounted it detects if it's fat16 or fat32

mkdosfs doesn't recognize disks - it formats them... and it supports the fat32 format which supports up to 2TB -- the problem with it not detecting the size of the partition is just because it's a port from linux to windows

Offline VorTechS

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Re: 250GB issues?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 07:15:05 am »
Quote
                Dim PhtSysArguments As String = "-v -n PHTSYS -F 32 " & DMSPartitions(PhtSysPartition).DriveLetter & " " & (DMSPartitions(PhtSysPartition).PartitionSize / 512)
                Dim PhtDtaArguments As String = "-v -n PHTDTA -F 32 " & DMSPartitions(PhtDtaPartition).DriveLetter & " " & (DMSPartitions(PhtDtaPartition).PartitionSize / 512)

Nope, I didn't forget the -F 32 option...
Kenwood KDC-W7031 | Kenwood KHD-CX910 | 250GB DMS | PhatHack Media Manager v1.1.4 (Alpha) | VIOT

Catch me weekdays 8am-4pm GMT on IRC @ irc.freenode.net on channel #phathack (aka the chat link!!)